Eli5. Why do military groups (101st airborne for example) seem to be numbered in random order
In: 1833
Buy 5 pigs number em 1 3 4 6 8 let em all go in Walmart. They will go nuts trying to find 2 5 and 7. Sometimes making your enemies think you have more than you do is an advantage.
So there *are* or *aren’t* 4,076 other MASH units? I’m so confused.
So the enemy don’t know how many military groups you have. If it’s the 101st the enemy thinks there must be at least 100 others.
Americans also do this with their streets to make it seem that they live on a longer and more important street they’ll say their house is number 1001.
By the way. The Germans numbered their tanks coming off the production line each one more than the other. You could only see this by close examination, but by the numbers found in the field it was possible for the Allies to estimate how many tanks the Germans had made. So since then the numbers are numbered in random order to prevent estimation of the total numbers.
As several people have already explained how many of these units were originally sequentially numbered, I will just add to that by explaining another few reasons for gaps or seemingly really high numbers with countries besides the US.
Many countries have air forces that were originally formed under the British Royal Air Force, either as part of the Commonwealth or as part of governments-in-exile during WW2. These squadrons were numbered as part of an overall RAF system of numbering where these government-in-exile squadrons received numbers in the 300s and squadrons formed under the Commonwealth Air Training Plan were numbered in the 400s. When the war ended and these squadrons returned home, many kept their numbers and retained the legacy, and in some cases formed the basis of the numbering system for their new Air Force. Like the Greeks took No. 335 and 336 Squadrons home with them, and now the Hellenic Air Force flying squadrons are numbered in the 320s-350s.
Similar to this are the units of the countries which became independent of the Soviet Union. Many of these simply retained their Soviet-era numbers (although there has been a drift towards renumbering over time as some of these countries seek distance from their Soviet past).
Then you have units that are (or were) part of a numbering system, but that system isn’t a simple 1 to whatever. The system assigns block ranges to units of a certain type or origin, like the US Army divisions or Royal Air Force and Fleet Air Arm squadrons. So Fleet Air Arm squadrons were numbered in sequence, but the numbers were in the 800s to keep them all together but without duplicating any RAF squadron numbers. And US Army infantry divisions immediately before WW2 were 1-25 for the Regular Army, 26-45 for the National Guard, 63-106 were Organized Reserve. Cold War expansion of the National Guard added 46-52 to their number range.
Finally, you have numbering systems where the number is based on information about the unit, like its mission, recruitment area, or even its base. So recruiting district 3 may form regiments 31, 32, etc. During WW2, the Italian Army gave its tank divisions numbers starting with 131, paratrooper divisions numbers in the 180s, and coastal defense divisions in the 200s. For the last one, an example is the Republic of Singapore Air Force where the support squadrons are numbered such that the last digit is the air base, so the units at Changi Air Base are 208, 508, 608, 708, 808 (this is also an example of the first digit being based on the mission of the unit, where the second digit is the only one that goes in sequential order.)
As several people have already explained how many of these units were originally sequentially numbered, I will just add to that by explaining another few reasons for gaps or seemingly really high numbers with countries besides the US.
Many countries have air forces that were originally formed under the British Royal Air Force, either as part of the Commonwealth or as part of governments-in-exile during WW2. These squadrons were numbered as part of an overall RAF system of numbering where these government-in-exile squadrons received numbers in the 300s and squadrons formed under the Commonwealth Air Training Plan were numbered in the 400s. When the war ended and these squadrons returned home, many kept their numbers and retained the legacy, and in some cases formed the basis of the numbering system for their new Air Force. Like the Greeks took No. 335 and 336 Squadrons home with them, and now the Hellenic Air Force flying squadrons are numbered in the 320s-350s.
Similar to this are the units of the countries which became independent of the Soviet Union. Many of these simply retained their Soviet-era numbers (although there has been a drift towards renumbering over time as some of these countries seek distance from their Soviet past).
Then you have units that are (or were) part of a numbering system, but that system isn’t a simple 1 to whatever. The system assigns block ranges to units of a certain type or origin, like the US Army divisions or Royal Air Force and Fleet Air Arm squadrons. So Fleet Air Arm squadrons were numbered in sequence, but the numbers were in the 800s to keep them all together but without duplicating any RAF squadron numbers. And US Army infantry divisions immediately before WW2 were 1-25 for the Regular Army, 26-45 for the National Guard, 63-106 were Organized Reserve. Cold War expansion of the National Guard added 46-52 to their number range.
Finally, you have numbering systems where the number is based on information about the unit, like its mission, recruitment area, or even its base. So recruiting district 3 may form regiments 31, 32, etc. During WW2, the Italian Army gave its tank divisions numbers starting with 131, paratrooper divisions numbers in the 180s, and coastal defense divisions in the 200s. For the last one, an example is the Republic of Singapore Air Force where the support squadrons are numbered such that the last digit is the air base, so the units at Changi Air Base are 208, 508, 608, 708, 808 (this is also an example of the first digit being based on the mission of the unit, where the second digit is the only one that goes in sequential order.)
So the enemy don’t know how many military groups you have. If it’s the 101st the enemy thinks there must be at least 100 others.
Americans also do this with their streets to make it seem that they live on a longer and more important street they’ll say their house is number 1001.
By the way. The Germans numbered their tanks coming off the production line each one more than the other. You could only see this by close examination, but by the numbers found in the field it was possible for the Allies to estimate how many tanks the Germans had made. So since then the numbers are numbered in random order to prevent estimation of the total numbers.
It is deliberate to mislead the enemy. If the enemy can figure out that the 3rd division has 8 regiments then they can keep track of where all 8 of them are.
If they get intelligence that the 101st airborne, 617 squadron and. M*A*S*H 4077 are moving it doesn’t help them. They can’t figure out how many other divisions, squadrons or hospitals there are, or if they know where they all are.
I don’t speak Army, but I’ve read some seemingly good explanations here that fit with my general military knowledge. And I really have no idea how the Navy and Air Force are organized, let alone Space Force.
But I can say, in the Marines, the numbers are generally meaningful, and mostly sequential. Ground side, numbers like 1/8, refer to 1st Battalion, 8th Marine Infantry Regiment. And the entire regiment is generally just referred to as 8th Marines, and you just have to know that it’s an infantry regiment, as opposed to an artillery regiment. So, if you see 1/8, or 2/5, or, generalized, x/y, that’s x battalion, y regiment (which may or may not be an infantry regiment, but also an artillery regiment, like 11th Marines). And there are decommissioned units in the Marines, just like in the Army, so 8th Marines no longer exists as an active regiment. AFAIK, gaps are all just due to decommissioned units and not deception. Regiments generally have three battalions, numbered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, repeating within each regiment, but lettered infantry companies or artillery batteries are continuous within a regiment, so 1st battalion would generally have A, B, and C companies, 2nd battalion would pick up with E, F, and G companies, etc.
There are also MEUs, Marine Expeditionary Units, and they have numbers like 11th MEU. But there, the first digit refers to which MEF (Marine Expeditionary Force) the MEU belongs to, and the second digit is the unit. So 11th MEU is part of I MEF, and is the first of three (for some reason, the digits are either both even, or both odd, so you get 11th, 13th, and 15th MEUs in I MEF, and 22nd, 24th, and 26th MEUs in II MEF, and then 31st MEU in III MEF).
The MEFs generally have subordinate units with corresponding numbers (eg, II MEF contains 2nd Marine Division, 2nd Marine Logistics Group, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade, and 22nd, 24th, and 26th MEUs, as above). I and III MEFS generally also follow this pattern, except 1st and 3rd MAWs got swapped somehow, so I MEF has 3rd MAW, and III MEF has 1st MAW. I have no idea the origin of this, you just have to remember it. And, generally, Anything above the battalion level with I, 1st, or 1x, is based on the West Coast, II/2/2x is East Coast, and III/3/3x is overseas (Japan, or Okinawa), and IV/4th are reserves.
I’m less familiar with Marine Air Wing and Marine Logistics Group unit number designations. It seems the air units’ numbering is just a hodgepodge, given some were numbered sequentially, but others took part of their numbers from their superior units, similar to how all the MEUs in the 10s, the 1 corresponds to I MEF.
As several people have already explained how many of these units were originally sequentially numbered, I will just add to that by explaining another few reasons for gaps or seemingly really high numbers with countries besides the US.
Many countries have air forces that were originally formed under the British Royal Air Force, either as part of the Commonwealth or as part of governments-in-exile during WW2. These squadrons were numbered as part of an overall RAF system of numbering where these government-in-exile squadrons received numbers in the 300s and squadrons formed under the Commonwealth Air Training Plan were numbered in the 400s. When the war ended and these squadrons returned home, many kept their numbers and retained the legacy, and in some cases formed the basis of the numbering system for their new Air Force. Like the Greeks took No. 335 and 336 Squadrons home with them, and now the Hellenic Air Force flying squadrons are numbered in the 320s-350s.
Similar to this are the units of the countries which became independent of the Soviet Union. Many of these simply retained their Soviet-era numbers (although there has been a drift towards renumbering over time as some of these countries seek distance from their Soviet past).
Then you have units that are (or were) part of a numbering system, but that system isn’t a simple 1 to whatever. The system assigns block ranges to units of a certain type or origin, like the US Army divisions or Royal Air Force and Fleet Air Arm squadrons. So Fleet Air Arm squadrons were numbered in sequence, but the numbers were in the 800s to keep them all together but without duplicating any RAF squadron numbers. And US Army infantry divisions immediately before WW2 were 1-25 for the Regular Army, 26-45 for the National Guard, 63-106 were Organized Reserve. Cold War expansion of the National Guard added 46-52 to their number range.
Finally, you have numbering systems where the number is based on information about the unit, like its mission, recruitment area, or even its base. So recruiting district 3 may form regiments 31, 32, etc. During WW2, the Italian Army gave its tank divisions numbers starting with 131, paratrooper divisions numbers in the 180s, and coastal defense divisions in the 200s. For the last one, an example is the Republic of Singapore Air Force where the support squadrons are numbered such that the last digit is the air base, so the units at Changi Air Base are 208, 508, 608, 708, 808 (this is also an example of the first digit being based on the mission of the unit, where the second digit is the only one that goes in sequential order.)
I don’t speak Army, but I’ve read some seemingly good explanations here that fit with my general military knowledge. And I really have no idea how the Navy and Air Force are organized, let alone Space Force.
But I can say, in the Marines, the numbers are generally meaningful, and mostly sequential. Ground side, numbers like 1/8, refer to 1st Battalion, 8th Marine Infantry Regiment. And the entire regiment is generally just referred to as 8th Marines, and you just have to know that it’s an infantry regiment, as opposed to an artillery regiment. So, if you see 1/8, or 2/5, or, generalized, x/y, that’s x battalion, y regiment (which may or may not be an infantry regiment, but also an artillery regiment, like 11th Marines). And there are decommissioned units in the Marines, just like in the Army, so 8th Marines no longer exists as an active regiment. AFAIK, gaps are all just due to decommissioned units and not deception. Regiments generally have three battalions, numbered 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, repeating within each regiment, but lettered infantry companies or artillery batteries are continuous within a regiment, so 1st battalion would generally have A, B, and C companies, 2nd battalion would pick up with E, F, and G companies, etc.
There are also MEUs, Marine Expeditionary Units, and they have numbers like 11th MEU. But there, the first digit refers to which MEF (Marine Expeditionary Force) the MEU belongs to, and the second digit is the unit. So 11th MEU is part of I MEF, and is the first of three (for some reason, the digits are either both even, or both odd, so you get 11th, 13th, and 15th MEUs in I MEF, and 22nd, 24th, and 26th MEUs in II MEF, and then 31st MEU in III MEF).
The MEFs generally have subordinate units with corresponding numbers (eg, II MEF contains 2nd Marine Division, 2nd Marine Logistics Group, 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade, and 22nd, 24th, and 26th MEUs, as above). I and III MEFS generally also follow this pattern, except 1st and 3rd MAWs got swapped somehow, so I MEF has 3rd MAW, and III MEF has 1st MAW. I have no idea the origin of this, you just have to remember it. And, generally, Anything above the battalion level with I, 1st, or 1x, is based on the West Coast, II/2/2x is East Coast, and III/3/3x is overseas (Japan, or Okinawa), and IV/4th are reserves.
I’m less familiar with Marine Air Wing and Marine Logistics Group unit number designations. It seems the air units’ numbering is just a hodgepodge, given some were numbered sequentially, but others took part of their numbers from their superior units, similar to how all the MEUs in the 10s, the 1 corresponds to I MEF.
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