Sovereign Citizens

221 views

There has to be some basis for people claiming that the laws of the land do not apply to them, but for the life of me, I can’t begin to understand it.

In: 89

28 Answers

Anonymous 0 Comments

Why do you think the laws *do* apply? Like what is the basis for one human to have control over another human?

Anonymous 0 Comments

It’s basically political nihilism/anarchism that ignores the fact that governments rule through a monopoly on violence.

A nihilist/anarchist might say that no government has the right to rule over individuals, and that forcing someone to conform using the threat of imprisonment, forcibly seizing personal property, or using direct violence conflicts directly with ideas of free will and self determination.

But a nihilist/anarchist is generally forced to acknowledge that a lack of moral/ethical right of a government to rule over citizens doesn’t change the de facto situation. The government rules because they can use violence to enforce that rule, and your moral/ethical take on the subject doesn’t change that.

Anonymous 0 Comments

Sovereign Citizenship is more of a rag-bag collection of related ideas than a cohesive “movement”.

What ties SC together is the idea that many federal laws, rules, and regulations are invalid, and that ordinary people do not have to obey or follow them.

Some of the arguments associated with SC include:

* The Constitution was never properly ratified or agreed, and therefore the Articles of Confederation (which provided for far more limited federal power) are the real “Constitution”.

* You the individual are different from the “You” on government forms. SCs will make claims about capital letters and abbreviations to argue that the JOHN Q SMITH listed on a tax form is an entirely different entity to John Quincy Smith the flesh-and-blood human being. All of the rules and laws apply to this ‘other’ JOHN Q SMITH, whoever he is…..

* Claiming that courts are invalid or illegal if the flag is not displayed a particular way or if certain words or actions occur. Therefore any ruling they make cannot be enforced.

* Using extreme semantics and word games to get around laws. The classic one is them protesting about ‘free travel’ at traffic stops. They claim they are not ‘driving’ but ‘travelling’, and that ‘free’ means they do not need to pay for licenses and registration.

* If they did not agree to be bound by a law, it should not apply to them. They make Granpa Simpson type “Dear Mr President, I do not agree to be taxed. PS I am not a crackpot” statements and claims thinking it allows them to get around laws.

* Claiming they never agreed to be a citizen, or that citizenship doe not automatically bind you to the laws of that country, or claiming they have some weird status where they get all the benefits of being a citizen but none of the responsibilities.

Sovereign Citizenship seems to be a weird combination of selfish assholes, genuinely ignorant people who’ve been duped, frustrated/angry political types who feel ‘let down’ or abandoned by the system, and straight up nutters.

Anonymous 0 Comments

I really don’t know much more than the next guy about these whackos, but something I never really see mentioned that is obvious to me is that all of their ethos is clearly rooted in some sort of complete rejection of the legitimacy of the state. That’s first and foremost what they’re about… and then uhhh I suppose as an expression of that foundation they believe that if they don’t consent to their parking ticket they are also exempt from consequence?

Anonymous 0 Comments

my understanding of it is as “cargo cult lawyering”, the copying of the forms and styles of real legal stuff but without an understanding of the real functionality.

these people see criminals who are “clearly” guilty get off on a “techinicality”, or rich people with expensive lawyers who can say something profound in latin and the charges go away. And they want some of that, as well. they want to be able to say some magic words, and the charges go away

now, most of these people have neither the money (or, frankly, the ability) to pass the bar and become real lawyers, so they turn to other sources. and they find this sovcit stuff online.

its a load of weird jibberish, but a lot of it sounds *something* like the werid jibberish they keep seeing on Law an Order, clever loopholes that get people into or out of trouble. its not implausible to them.

All they have to do is say these magic words, and the charges go way

And they ask the people online “why have I never heard of this before?”, and the online people say “its because the government doesnt want you to know, so it can keep on bullying you”. And that makes a certain sort sense, so they believe it. And they learn the magic words.

then, some time down the line, they get into legal trouble. Some just live thier lives normally until they are forced by circumstance, others think they are now legally untouchable and start flouting laws, but either way, they end up in court. They say the magic words they learnt, the ones that make the charges go away….and reddit has another “lol sovcit” story.

Anonymous 0 Comments

Magical thinking. Lawyers talk legalese and they always seem to get their way so that’s where their power must lay. Therefore, if one says the right combination of magic words then they can generate any result they choose.

It has similarities to the cargo cults, where certain groups of barely contacted people thought that the European people’s power to obtain stuff came from knowing how to attract those flying dragons carrying all the goods in the sky. Therefore they began undertaking all manner of ritual to try and attract the planes themselves. It was rooted in a total misunderstanding of what’s actually happening.

So we end up with a group of people spouting gobbledygook at cops and judges because they’re trying to ape something they don’t really understand… And they’re arrogant enough to believe that they do know.

Anonymous 0 Comments

Unfortunately this is “explain it like I’m five” and sovereign citizens have the argumentative ability of a mere four year old. As in “that wasn’t me it was the other boy with my name who also lives in my clothes ”

Anonymous 0 Comments

>There has to be some basis

why? flat earthers, anti-vaxers, and people who tout trickle-down economics all have no basis for their beliefs, but we have them. in the case of sovereign citizens, their complete disregard for other humans and their wishful thinking combine in a fantasy easily disproven.

Anonymous 0 Comments

Basically, people decide that they are no longer US citizens. Since they aren’t citizen, the laws don’t apply to them, right? Wrong. Immigrants and visitors still have to follow those rules. No idea why sovereign citizens think they are immune to those rules.

Anonymous 0 Comments

In my experience it primarily stems from people who have been in some sort of legal trouble. When they have no valid means of protecting themselves from the consequences of their own actions, they search for any theory which may provide the relief. They end up stumbling up Soviet literature which they mistakenly believe is their golden ticket to freedom from having to take responsibility for their prior actions.